Meritocracy or mirror-tocracy? With no requirements or standardized testing, hiring for sales often falls into a "like attracts like" situation. But what happens when that same phenomenon applies to the buyer-seller relationship as well? Does the diversity of your sales team match the diversity of your prospect pool?
"Talk to your buyer about how they prefer to buy. Listen to what they have to say and that's how you craft your hiring strategy."
In this episode of The Future of Sales, Jen Spencer, VP of Sales and Marketing at SmartBug Media, explains how a career in education and the nonprofit sector helped her perfect her sales process, steps she takes to garner trust with prospects, and why diversity within companies is crucial for their continued success. Jen also wrangles with Sahil about outbound tactics. Is cold calling dead?
The "No Bullshit" Takeaways
• Learn the major factors we need to think about (that we may not typically) when hiring in sales.
• Find out Jen's strategies for truly understanding buyer behavior.
• Discover what Jen and her sales team do to better empathize with their prospects and customers.
You can also find us on iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud and if you prefer watching, YouTube.
Sahil Mansuri: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Future of Sales show. I’m Sahil Mansuri, your host, CEO of Bravado. And with me today is a face that is very familiar to people in the sales and marketing world. I’m honored to have the Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing at SmartBug Media, Marketing Chair at Girls in Tech, Phoenix, and kind of a voice for sales marketers and the B2B community program a long time. So, welcome to The Future of Sales, Jen.
Jen Spencer: Thanks so much. Well, you went there. You called me “the,” you had a “the” in front of my name.
Sahil: The Jen Spencer. That’s right.
Jen: Yes. And the like room of kind of starkness, it’s really strange. Normally, I’m surrounded by -- I like to be surrounded by color and light, and I’m working at a Galvanize today and so, I’m in this phone booth.
Sahil: No, no, it’s okay. Well, as I was saying, I’m kind of between one fern right now, you know, Zach Galifianakis I’m sure is going to sue me for that comment, but I’ve got the beard and the dad bod to go with it. So, I’m ready to rock. One fern short. Okay, amazing. So, I want to, you know, just for the sake of those people, I can’t imagine who this would be, but whomever it is that doesn’t know you it could mean -- can I bug you for a little introduction on yourself and a little background as well?
Jen: Sure, sure. There are many people I’ve never met before. So, like -- as you said I’m the VP of Sales and Marketing for SmartBug Media. We’re an intelligent inbound marketing agency, a HubSpot Diamond Partner and my -- I’ve only been with SmartBug for about a year now. I was actually with a client there before I joined the team. So, I started my career as the high school English and Theater Arts teacher and then got into B2B tech by way of non-profit professional theater, which is how everybody gets into B2B.
Sahil: Right, right, very clear.
Jen: So, yeah, I went from being an educator to getting into community engagement and PR and honestly, like cut my teeth on sales and marketing in the non-profit space. So, after eight years at Arizona Theater Company, I was director of sales and marketing responsible for $7 million in revenue, you know, all through earned, you know, ticket sales and learned a whole lot. And so, just within, you know, from there working in B2B Saas quite a bit both for small organizations, gone through acquisition or for big old companies, just saying I don’t want to do that, did the startup thing. So, yeah, so I’m just -- I’m a very revenue focused marketer who kind of fell backward into running sales teams.
Sahil: Well, you know, there’s no such thing as I think a standard path to sales. And you know, one of the reasons we’ve explored for why that might be, you know, kind of centers around the way that sales is taught in the collegiate sense, right. And so, if you think about sales from the perspective of, you know, I think there’s something like 20 universities in the entire country that actually have a major in sales. I think the number goes to 50 if you count minors in sales. And sales as a profession has had a lot of negative stigma around it, you know. And very few people are proud to stand up and say, like, “I’m a salesperson,” you know, the way that someone might do, like “I’m the doctor, an engineer, or whatever,” right?
You know, I think that your experiences is certainly unique, but at the same time it’s completely not unique in the sense that you never thought you’d be in sales, you’re going to do something completely different and then, like all of a sudden here you are. You know, how do you feel about, you know, has we look towards this profession becoming increasingly more professional than us starting to like build curriculum and programming and like an education track around sales. You know, how do you see that changing in the future?
Jen: It’s a really good point. Yeah, it’s a really, really good point and I think if I look back at how -- what’s made me successful both as an individual contributor and as a sales leader, I have to look back and go, “My teaching background was a significant part of that.” Because when you have a classroom full of high school students, right, and you have a goal. You have something, you have a curriculum you need to get through, there was something that you want them to learn, and you have to reverse engineer this strategy for getting them through this process of understanding and learning and passing that test. It’s almost identical, right, when you’re talking about moving someone through a sales process.
Sahil: That’s right.
Jen: So -- and I think that as our buyers, everyone is talking about our buyers are changing, our customers are changing, right, that whole like negative stereotype of a salesperson, like I use car salesperson, that whole idea, that person, that sales role is diminishing. And people want to be helped, they want to be supported, they want to be taught. So, I think that there is something there, there is this connection between being able to listen, to understand the audience, know where they’re coming from, and there’s psychology involved, there’s teaching, there’s communication involved. I think sales is fundamentally changing because of everything that’s going on around us. So, I mean, I’m hopeful that we’re going to start to see, you know, curriculum kind of popping up here and there. I think it’s already happening on the marketing side of things, wherein marketing curricula, they’re, you know, they’re teaching about revenue, you know, revenue marketing as opposed to just brand marketing.
Sahil: That’s right, that’s right.
Jen: So I have a feeling sales is right, right behind, right behind.
Sahil: I share your optimism and in fact, one of the things that we’ve been doing here at Bravado is going through and having conversations with both, I guess, everything from people who are running business programs to college counselors, and, you know, go through and trying to set up, you know, kind of career fair type of activities where people are introduced to sales. I’m sure you noticed that sales is the number one most common profession for someone who is freshly out of undergrad and yet it’s just not taught anywhere, which I think is just, you know, an absolute oversight.
And, you know, you can kind of make the joke and I always like to say, don’t you see someone who’s a Korean history major -- salesperson, you know, or someone who’s a former, you know, D2 basketball player -- salesperson. You know, like it’s very common that the people kind of fall into sales and it’s not really taught in a professional practice and it’s one of the things that, you know, we’ve really tried to champion is creating a code of conduct, creating ethics, creating standards and really kind of building professional practice around sales as oppose to turning around and having and be like, “Oh, whatever my sales manager tells me, it’s cool. It’s kind of what I’m supposed to do,” you know. It seems kind of silly for a profession that employs more people than any other in the United States.
Jen: Yeah. I think one of the hardest things about making -- putting like foundational sales skills or tactics as part of any kind of educational curricula that it’s constantly evolving. Whereas, I can give you an example, like someone says I’m a doctor, right. There are things about medicine that will never change, right, that are always going to be there. And then, there’s like bits and pieces that are constantly going to be evolved as technology and science improve. From like a perspective of sales, human interaction, marketing, I mean, these are things that are constantly evolving. So, it’s -- we’re going to have to make sure we’re, you know, definitely staying on top of any education that’s happening. I mean and I think we -- like I’m using the -- it’s like --
Sahil: The royal “we.”
Jen: Yeah, the royal “we.”
Sahil: It’s us. It’s you and I.
Jen: I don’t know. What are we going to do? Yeah. So it’s tough, it’s really tough. I completely understand why we’re in the predicament that we’re in, yeah.
Sahil: It makes a lot of sense. And so one thing I want to turn our attention to as we talk about the future of sales and how things are changing and I agree with you entirely that, you know, that the weapon that salespeople have in order to get customers to talk to them was information obfuscation, right. It was the fact that when you went on to a company’s pricing page, it’s a contact sales. You wanted to download a White Paper, it was fill out a lead form. And you know, it was basically like a bunch of obstacles to purchasing a product that was like the -- it’s when sales injected itself into the process. And more and more what we’re seeing now is that salespeople are -- well, there’s G2 Crowd, there’s Trust Radius and there’s a litany of other services and tools that are out there that make it extremely easy for a buyer to get a lot of information. You and I are a part of a forum called MSP where you can go and post something like, “Hey, what do you think about Gong versus Chorus,” and get, you know, hundreds of answers from all these buyers.
And so, you know, information is available at people’s fingertips that used to not be available. So, when we’re thinking about, you know, the role of the salesperson, I really like what you said about psychology, about communication. You know, one thing that we see as a trend is that those salespeople who are at the very top of their field are the ones who are the most respected and trusted in their industry for their technical knowledge, right. They’re the people who can look at a website and tell you where there are bugs. It’s the people that can listen to someone explain their entire marketing cadence and not just like read the next thing on their script, but actually know how to run a marketing campaign and be able to like get in the reeds with the buyer in such a way that there’s like true trust built between buyer and seller. And do you think that that’s like another type of evolving component of sales or what are your thoughts there?
Jen: Yes, I definitely do. I think, you know, one thing is organizations are going to have to do a lot more research than they’ve done in the past on their buyer. And you know, you may have competitive products that meet the needs of different types of people and that’s okay and it’s less about us focusing on, well, this -- like let’s say I sell phone cords. I don’t know where I came up with this one. Let’s say I sell phone cords. I can pull a list of like anybody who still has landlines, right, and I can target those people. But maybe there’s a reason why my phone cords make more sense in the hands of Person A versus Person B, this is a horrible example. But we have to be really honest with ourselves about that and make sure we’re like targeting the right, you know, we’re focusing on the right people. I’ve now forgotten the actual question that you asked me, I’m so, so sorry.
Sahil: No, no, no, it’s fine. The question, in particular, is as a salesperson how much more technical do you need to be than previously?
I think it is extremely important to be able to know what it’s like to sit in your customer’s shoes
Jen: So what I was getting to is having that empathy, so I think it is extremely important to be able to know what it’s like to sit in your customer’s shoes, right. And that’s -- and not everyone is going to have that as an opportunity. So, like I’m in a unique position where I sell marketing services and I’m a marketer, so I know, right. But I have members of my team who aren’t marketers, you know, they’ve never run like inbound marketing programs, not inbound marketing programs necessarily, but they’re still able to sell those marketing services. Okay, why? Because we’ve done effective research, we truly understand who our ideal customer is, we know deeply how we help them, what their pains, you know, are and how we -- and we’re able to speak to that. So, maybe you’re not going to have that like hands-on expertise, if you do, amazing, right. But I think it’s just -- it starts with just really understanding your buyer. Truly. Not just understanding your products.
Sahil: That makes a lot of sense and I think I agree with you very much that being able to drive genuine empathy between buyers and sellers is just becoming more and more critical. I want to turn our topic to -- I want to turn our attention to a different topic but in the same thing, which is outbound. You work with inbound and obviously, HubSpot. Brian Signorelli who I’m sure you probably know was a guest here a couple of weeks ago on The Future of Sales podcast. And you know, we are constantly seeing this debate on LinkedIn and other forms of, you know, cold calling, cold emailing, you know, versus things like, you know, nurture campaigns and creating content versus things like referrals and warm intros and kind of leveraging your network. But, I mean, obviously, we do all of it, right, but if you were to prognosticate a year from now, two years from now, five years from now, what is more effective in the future, what becomes less effective and why? Just the easy ones.
Jen: Yeah, I mean, listen, it’s going to depend on your buyer persona. So, I mean, you have to think about how -- my customer or my buyer, how does my buyer like to buy, how do they like to engage? So, I can’t say, “Hey, inbound is the perfect like answer to anything and everything,” right, or even we’re in an inbound marketing agency. We say intelligent inbound because we believe in -- we believe in like a broader view of what kind of is traditionally like your marketers being inbound. So, but we have clients who the traditional inbound doesn’t make sense for them because of the way that their ideal customer likes to buy.
So, their ideal customers are not going to be going to Google and typing and then search and looking for that thing, that’s not their process. So, that’s why I think that -- I don’t think that there’s any one right way, I don’t know that we’re going to see this massive shift necessarily in the market where people are doing more-- I hope that we’re more intentional. I hope that the shift we see is that each organization is owning their own demand gen strategy and doing what’s best for them. I mean, I’ve tried to -- I’ve had to tune out a lot of that noise that you’re talking about with people who are saying, you know, cold calling is dead or cold calling is still alive, or who cares, I mean, I would say what -- I will want to get on the phone with your customer, my customer, whoever it is and find out what they prefer, how did they like to interact. When they made their last purchase that was, you know, comparable to what you have to sell, how did they go about doing it. And depending on what they said, then that’s how you should craft your strategy. So, I think there’s still a place for everything that we’re doing whether it’s account-based, it’s inbound or outbound, yeah, I’m hesitant to say we’re going to see, you know, thing over another. I hope we just become more intentional and intelligent about what we do.
I’m hesitant to say we’re going to see, you know, thing over another. I hope we just become more intentional and intelligent about what we do.
Sahil: Yeah, sure. And I agree with that very much that in today’s day and age, you know, a blended strategy is one that makes the most sense. You know, I would say that if you were to survey a thousand buyers and say, hey, you know, which of these methods do you prefer more or less, you know, I would be surprised if cold calling was on the very bottom of things that people prefer. I mean, it’s kind of like we can all as human beings relate to this. You’re sitting there at dinner or you’re like out at a bar or whatever it is and your phone rings and you look down and you see a, you know, a number that’s eerily suspicious to your own number and it’s clear that someone is doing local targeting.
The first few times, you fall for it, right, you answer the phone and it’s, you know, someone trying to sell you solar panels, someone tries to sell you insurance or someone trying to get you to take a survey or whatever it is, right. And then, after a while when you become savvy to the fact that any time -- like my phone number starts with like 650-278 and I get a lot of 650-278 blah, blah, blah, right, like whatever it is. And I -- every time I see that I (a) never answer, but then, (b) I’m super annoyed, right, it’s just like don’t try to trick me into answering my phone, like it’s just like, so silly. And I think that you know, if I were to take a more controversial stand, I think that cold calling is the antithesis of what most buyers would prefer. We do it because it’s effective, and we do it because it’s a way to get in with a buyer and I think that’s okay today.
But if you look at things like Castle and GDPR and, you know, I think there’s a U.S. version that will show economics specialist, there’s Google and everyone being like so data privacy-centric these days. You know, we have do not call registries, we have "unsubscribe" links going to the bottom of emails. It’s only so long until we say like, “Hey, you can’t call or email someone unless they’ve given you permission.” And I think that once that day comes, it’s a day that -- if that was ever put out to vote, I think, it would pass of like 99% of people voting from it. The only 1% would be salespeople who would be voting against it. And I think it’s kind of an obvious thing that people dislike and I think we need to be a little bit more clever than just like, you know, sitting there with the headset, with a dialer or software, you know, clicking a button and just like running through and getting connected to someone. You know, I just don’t -- I don’t see that as being part of the future of sales.
Jen: No, I mean, especially not with a more consultative sale, you know, it was funny I was -- I got a call the other day and I answered the phone. I answer the phone a lot and --
Sahil: You’re so generous.
Jen: Well, so I don’t know maybe someone wants to buy something for me, so I answered the phone and it was somebody -- it was someone working for a car windshield replacement company, like the glass. And asking -- saying we’re going to be in the area and if I wanted my windshield replaced. And he started going with this whole insurance deal, I was like, “My windshield is not broken. I don’t need this.” And he’s like, “Are you sure? Are you sure there’s not like a little crack?” And I got it like really irritated, and I said, “No. And I know how to find a windshield company when and if I need one.” But I thought about it afterward and got, you know, like, this is a high commodity product, right.
There’s like -- it’s like a dime a dozen and it’s covered insurance, it’s like who am I going to go to, it’s probably largely referral based, or I mean, this is like, actually, like auto-dialing a bunch of people, probably is not such a bad strategy for them, right, because do I really care, will I get my windshield replace from if I needed it. And at the time it’s like I would have picked up and I would have -- maybe like -- maybe it would have been my like lucky day, maybe like I would have a crack on my windshield and I would have been super happy if they’re going to be out there tomorrow. So, I mean I think there are some instances, but in a more consultative sale where it’s not a high commodity in the B2B world, you’re right. I mean it’s just plain old, I mean, that was irritating and I even understood why you could have ...
Sahil: Yeah, I really think that you know, this is one area where sales leaders and salespeople have been so -- are so conditioned to expect that this is like the way that sales is done. You know, I’m a big fan of David Cancel and what they’re doing out at Drift, and David posted that they don’t have phones on the desks of the salespeople because they’re like nobody wants a cold call, why are we cold calling people. You know, and I love that. I love it. I can’t tell you how much I love it. And I believe that is the trend of the future, you know, if you want to get in touch with me find my email address, shoot me an email, it’s not that hard to do. If I have intent or interest in your product, I’ll respond, if I don’t, then leave me alone. And I really believe that that is what buyers want and, you know, even the email thing is interesting. And there was a thread, I think it was the CEO or one of the co-founders of Basecamp, if you’re familiar with that, and he had posted that we should create a service that every time that you get an inbound cold email from a salesperson it automatically subscribes that, like there’s a button you can push and it subscribes that salesperson to every other salesperson who’s ever emailed you’s mailing list, so they just like email each other all day long.
And there were hundreds of comments in return being like -- someone wrote like this is like the Nobel -- someone ship out the Nobel Prize for whoever invents this, right. Like there is a lot of -- I think there’s a lot of contention you know, and a lot of consternation among the buyer community about the tactics that are used in sales. And I believe very much that, you know, with the rise of AI, with the increased automation, with increased transparency, if we as a profession because I think going back to what you said about car sales about, you know, two minutes ago, you know, car sales as a profession is diminishing. Well, a big driver of that is things like TrueCar. Like, I don’t need to kind of have a salesperson. I know exactly what everyone is paid for a car. I’m just going to walk in and demand the same price and if you don’t give it, I don’t care what the MSRP says on the thing, I know exactly what people are really paying.
And I think that that is obvious foreshadowing with how sales go and if you don’t really know the car and if you’re not really customer-centric and if you’re trying to like sell me something like, you know, windshield replacement thing that I don’t need or whatever, then I think you’re going to end up, I think you’re going to end up getting automated away. And I think that there are people that survive and are actually thriving -- because I do believe that sales is human and I do think people want to buy from people -- are the people that they want to talk to, the people you enjoy working with, the people you trust. I just think that’s what it really comes down to, you know.
Jen: No, yeah I agree wholeheartedly.
Sahil: Yeah. And so Jen, I want to get your take on one last thing before I let you go, I know you have a busy day, but one thing that tugs at us a lot in, you know, one of the advantages that I have at Bravado is getting a chance to see hundreds and hundreds of salespeople and the clients they’ve worked with and get testimonials from, and it just pains me to see, you know, the lack of diversity in sales. And I think this is a topic that has come up over and over and over again and people are campaigning and talking about a lot, which I’m really excited about. I think we talk a lot about women in sales, I think we’re so used to talk a lot about minorities in sales, perhaps less, but a piece that certainly deserves discussion is LGBTQ in sales. You know, just -- I’ll just present it with our commentary, what are your thoughts and what are your takes as a female sales leader and someone who’s so widely respected in the B2B sales community?
Jen: Well, I think, you know, everything we’ve talked about to this point about buyer behavior changing and the way that a salesperson, the role of a salesperson today versus the role of salesperson 10 years ago, 20 years ago, that is helping changed who we’re seeing in sales roles and who we need to be seeing in sales roles. So, I think if you were to talk to someone who was a sales leader, you know, 20 years ago or even less, they would say go find like an ex-athlete, give me some guy who used to play football in college. He’s going to be competitive, he’s going to like, you know, control the conversation, he’s going to, you know, there’s this picture -- this image that they have.
The thing is, who do people want to buy from. And people don’t necessarily want to buy from that type of person anymore. So, and people like to -- we work with similar types of people. It’s funny, this was like a number of years ago in Times Solutions and we have this array of sales reps. And one day, I just sat with my CEO, I’m like, you know, what’s interesting is we have these very different personalities on our team and if you look at the customers they’re bringing on, the customers are very much like the sales reps, right, like there’s a lot of similarities. He’s like, “Gosh, you’re right.” I’m like, “Like attracts like and people want to work with people they’re comfortable with.”
So we have to change that profile and stop thinking about kind of what a traditional salesperson kind of looks like because our buyers are changing. Now, that’s kind of one piece. The other piece that I think we also have control over is the little things that we do inside of our organization that are -- that we may be very, very blind to. So, here’s an example. I was talking with someone in -- she’s in a sales capacity, she’s like an SDR at a tech company and she mentioned that she didn’t -- there was like a little competition, which competition is fantastic, but she lost some kind of a competition internally, like a book meeting competition.
And so what her manager made her do was like 20 push-ups in the middle of the floor like in the middle of the office, right. And it was like, like everyone is kind of cheering and like it was this whole big thing, and she said, you know, she was fine at first with it and then, she thought about it later and went, that was kind of messed up and was thinking about like other people in the office, and other people might be interested potentially being on that sales team. But might go, well, I don’t want to be like dehumanized like that, you know. So, here it’s like, I know that sales manager had the best of intention, right, and it all came like a good place, but you have to think about what you’re putting out there and who you’re saying is welcome on your team. It’s things like that, it’s things like -- very natural things, like I was one time at an organization where -- now I don’t golf, okay. I live in Arizona, I guess I should golf, but I don’t golf.
But there was, you know, a couple of people coming to town and a bunch of like the leaders, they went golfing and I wasn’t invited, you know. And they said well you don’t golf. I’m like, “Yeah, but, like there’s business. Even though you’re golfing there’s business happening. Don’t tell me there’s not business happening when you’re there, so either invite me and I will like hack away, I’ll make you all pissed off, I don’t care, or come up with an activity that everyone can participate in.” And you know, the CEO is like, “Oh, like you’re right, like I’m -- you’re right.” So, it’s just a matter of like some of us speaking up and saying like, hey, like, this isn’t cool.
Sahil: I mean I have so many thoughts on everything that you just said that are all like conflicting together, but I feel like I can thread it by just saying, you know, from everything from the persona of who we try to hire to the culture that we build on the team to the activities that we choose to do as a team, you know, it’s -- I think you said it best, you know, light attracts light. And so far, you know, we haven’t run a true meritocracy in sales, we run through mirror-tacracy in sales and most of the old school sales there are a bunch of white dudes and so they hired a bunch of white dudes to come and they do white dude-y things like do golf and do push-ups on the floor. And if you don’t happen to fit that profile, then these things go unnaturally to you and then you self-select out.
And I think that where it comes down to is exactly what you said which is let’s think about who are buyers want to buy from. And, you know, I really want job descriptions for sales roles, you know, I don’t quite have an explanation for why except for I’m curious. You know, keep reading and it’s like, we’re looking for someone who’s super competitive, who can control the conversation and someone who’s a hustler and a sales ninja. I’m like, which buyer wants to buy from a controlling ninja who’s a hustler? You know, like, give the buyer who’s like, yes, sign me up for a conversation with the most competitive person on your team.
You know, and so I think that, you know, if you ask as a buyer, I’m going to be like, I’m going to talk to someone who’s really kind and someone who’s really compassionate and someone who’s really respectful and someone who’s really smart and someone who knows the product and is really responsive to my needs. Like, I want someone who’s fun and just genuinely a good human, right. I’m sure that’s what buyers want, but that’s never what’s in the job description for sales. And I think that that is the miss and until we solve that problem we’re going to get rid of the stigma and until we get rid of the stigma we’re always going to be in a competitive situation with buyers where it’s us versus them and it’s all about us being on the same side as them, and I couldn’t agree with you more. So, I really appreciate your perspective on that, Jen. I’m going to take the snippet of what you said and play it for our team here internally as well because I think it really resonates.
Jen: Awesome. Well, I’m so glad.
Sahil: Amazing. Well, you got one tip for a sales leader who’s listening to this and is like, well, gosh, this conversation makes a lot of sense, where do I get started? You have one actionable tip for somebody who wants to increase diversity on their team, one thing they can do today to start making, getting the snowball rolling down the hill.
Jen: Honestly, I would have select like, you know, three or four of my best customers, the people who fit my buyer profile, like two, I think like if we had hundred more of these people, life would be perfect and I would get on the phone with them. If you can, get face-to-face with them and talk to them about the way that they, you know, went about buying from you and about their salesperson, get honest feedback, ask them about some of their best sales experiences, working with other companies, some of their worst sales experiences. I think you’ll learn a lot.
Sahil: Account-based hiring, right, that’s kind of -- that’s what came to my mind right away.
Jen: Let’s go start a company!
Sahil: Another account-based something. Go!
Jen: I have no more time.
Sahil: But I think it makes so much sense and I love it.
Sahil: And again being responsive to the market and listening to your customers is the only way to win in the market and I think that’s a great -- I think it’s a great tip, it’s really, really good. So, and it kind of put you on the spot, you like really delivered though. That’s awesome. Okay, so, we will let you go, but only if you’ll promise to come back and do this again because you’re great, Jen. This is such a great session.
Jen: Awesome. Yeah, I would love to and maybe next time I’ll be in a more beautiful environment for those people who are watching this. So --
Sahil: You should get a fern on this side for you and then, we could be both between two ferns. It’s going to be amazing. Then we’ll definitely get sued. Okay, so Funny or Die is just like cringing. All right, Jen, thank you so much. And oh, one last thing, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, has any follow up questions or, you know, wants to chat, strat, what’s the best way to get a hold of you?
Jen: So my advice is to find me on LinkedIn, but when you request me on LinkedIn, it’s just Jen Spencer, easy to find me, just let me know that you heard me here so I have some context for why you’re connecting with me or you can find me via smartbugmedia.com.
Sahil: Perfect. All right, well, Jen, thank you so much for your time and it’s such a pleasure. And we’ll have to do this again soon.
Jen: Awesome, thank you!
Sahil: Thank you, cheers! Bye.