What is your take on these labels? Really keen on having a great growth discussion about this!
JC10X
DEBATE TIME! (Sensitive topic)
46
Hate it. The more we label people according to gender/color/orientation/whatever the more divided we become. We're all people, let's leave it at that.
While I totally agree that labels are dividing people, I think it's really hard for people to not be angry about the oppression they've felt in their lives, especially if it's in a facet like a career where generally a good amount of work is involved.
That being said, I think we have an overall conflict resolution issue and we don't know how to process these emotions and deal with them in a healthy way. I'll say it forever and ever, everyone can benefit from a therapist.
That being said, I think we have an overall conflict resolution issue and we don't know how to process these emotions and deal with them in a healthy way. I'll say it forever and ever, everyone can benefit from a therapist.
Therapy is liiiiiiife
It makes me so sad when people are scared to go or their pride butts in. I understand the feelings but need everyone else to understand the sweet release of pent up aggression and stress (ESPECIALLY those in sales)!!!
This!
I think for now, these labels are healthy. The world will eventually outgrow them when we have an equal division of labor.
I love that and I love this comment! Agreed its all a division scheme!
give funcoupons some fun coupons asap!
My money counter is ready.
Brilliant!
I think you’re in agreement with her
Funcoupons is boss!
Agreed!
❤️
This
Insert "we're not worthy" GIF here.
So much this.
But then again the haters will find some evidence of privilege to tear this comment down with somehow.
Let's just treat people like people, judge who we spend time with based on character, and stop with the identity game.
If you follow the logical thought process, everyone can be a member of an infinite number of tribal cross-sections of society. So why not just pick the common denominator (the individual) and make our decisions based on that?
So much this.
But then again the haters will find some evidence of privilege to tear this comment down with somehow.
Let's just treat people like people, judge who we spend time with based on character, and stop with the identity game.
If you follow the logical thought process, everyone can be a member of an infinite number of tribal cross-sections of society. So why not just pick the common denominator (the individual) and make our decisions based on that?
Thank you!
You and I speak the same language, my friend. I can't stand the identity politics bullshit and don't care who's offended by that statement.
Hearts!
<---EDIT: this isn't an I disagree button. It's a debate from the damn headline.
Can't do that without equal footing, rights, expectations. Your comment is part of the problem, and not the solution.
Saying can't we all just get along - or my small circle/country/state whatever has no issues that affect me personally so it's not a problem. Is THE problem.
You're in south USA congrats, cross that border to Mexico or any other central/south american country, and ask what the wage gap is?
Can't do that without equal footing, rights, expectations. Your comment is part of the problem, and not the solution.
Saying can't we all just get along - or my small circle/country/state whatever has no issues that affect me personally so it's not a problem. Is THE problem.
You're in south USA congrats, cross that border to Mexico or any other central/south american country, and ask what the wage gap is?
I don't see a wage gap, I live in south America. I see a competence gap and the wage gap is highly visible based on education.
"Identity Politics"
"Don't care who's offended"
The problem with statements like this... you can't have it both ways.
Let me guess, you've tossed around "I'm just brutally honest" too?
Issues with this, is the sweeping generalization that empowering females is identity politics? What fucking planet do you live on... until equal rights are achieved including in our own damn country you literally have drawn the short straw for success. Yes there are those that can succeed, but not without working twice as hard.
Two ways for you to go into the future from here... honestly think about it.
"If it hasn't happened to me I don't care" (Current view)
or
"This should never happen to anyone, that's why I care"
You might find yourself living a happier life.
"Don't care who's offended"
The problem with statements like this... you can't have it both ways.
Let me guess, you've tossed around "I'm just brutally honest" too?
Issues with this, is the sweeping generalization that empowering females is identity politics? What fucking planet do you live on... until equal rights are achieved including in our own damn country you literally have drawn the short straw for success. Yes there are those that can succeed, but not without working twice as hard.
Two ways for you to go into the future from here... honestly think about it.
"If it hasn't happened to me I don't care" (Current view)
or
"This should never happen to anyone, that's why I care"
You might find yourself living a happier life.
And do females have the access to education/training?
Disagree. But only because the playing field isn't equal. If it was, this logic works. It is absolutely harder for a woman than a man, or any minority for that matter. So yes, when I see a Black Trans person become the CEO of a large corporation when 99.9% of everyone else is a white dude, I celebrate that badass boss. Not seeing people for their struggle only shows your privilege and avoids the disparity issue we have.
I'm a woman and am going to go ahead and say that in my personal experience I haven't faced any challenges that my male colleagues haven't.
It's fine to celebrate individual's accomplishments, but I don't want to be celebrated because I'm a "successful woman in sales." I want to be celebrated because I'm successful in sales, period. I'm in the same arena as my male colleagues, I don't need my own league to play in.
Pointing out that I'm a woman, or someone's black, or someone's gay makes it sound like they can't play in the same field as everyone else because of these "handicaps" and that's wrong.
It's fine to celebrate individual's accomplishments, but I don't want to be celebrated because I'm a "successful woman in sales." I want to be celebrated because I'm successful in sales, period. I'm in the same arena as my male colleagues, I don't need my own league to play in.
Pointing out that I'm a woman, or someone's black, or someone's gay makes it sound like they can't play in the same field as everyone else because of these "handicaps" and that's wrong.
Hearts again!
You are very lucky that you haven't faced these challenges. I have personally been passed up for promotions by my male colleagues.
When I interviewed for my first promotion to AE, my male SDR colleague, who did't even want to be an AE, was forced to interview against me. He called in sick on the day of the interview bc he recognized that it was wrong.
For now, these labels exist and they are OK. Eventually it will fade. Probably not anytime soon, though.
When I interviewed for my first promotion to AE, my male SDR colleague, who did't even want to be an AE, was forced to interview against me. He called in sick on the day of the interview bc he recognized that it was wrong.
For now, these labels exist and they are OK. Eventually it will fade. Probably not anytime soon, though.
I agree, this sounds like one of those "It can't exist because it hasn't happened to me" moments.
Yeah the "female boss" "girl boss" stuff isn't very fitting, but it's to spread awareness that this gender can make stuff happen. Saying it's divisive is exactly the playbook misogyny needs. Keep quiet, don't say anything - is the actual play book of oppression.
Yeah the "female boss" "girl boss" stuff isn't very fitting, but it's to spread awareness that this gender can make stuff happen. Saying it's divisive is exactly the playbook misogyny needs. Keep quiet, don't say anything - is the actual play book of oppression.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never once said that women are never harassed at work or otherwise.
Didn't. Just said because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean it's not happening.
Sorry Funcoupons, have to disagree. Based on your personal experience that's okay. But here are some stats on why it needs to be highlighted. Especially in emerging markets, and sales itself.
https://www.un.org/en/women/endviolence/pdf/VAW.pdf
http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-42436817
https://www.panmacmillan.com/blogs/lifestyle-wellbeing/shocking-gender-inequality-facts-melinda-gates
One in three women worldwide are beaten, forced into sex or abused by an intimate partner. In 2017 alone, DAILY, 137 women were killed by a family member. Women and girls together account for 71% of all human trafficking. A woman is raped every 13 minutes in India.
Women aren’t missing from STEM fields or Sales because they’re ‘natural caregivers.’ Their absence is more likely because of structural barriers such as unfair parental leave policies in the workplace, or the fact that 71% in women field research have received inappropriate sexual remarks and 26% have reported experiencing sexual assault. I wonder how high that percentage is in Sales? I bet you it's higher...
I am actually surprised at how many upvotes your comment got. It's great you can think everyone is on the same playing field, but for women worldwide, it's tilted against you. Hard.
We are pretty damn close to a fair and equitable society in Canada, but I can tell you from my personal experience, woman are paid less, harassed, and generally just get the short end of the stick more often.
Saying it's a divisive scheme is the playbook needed to keep the status quo. You think the suffrage movement was divisive? How about anti-slavery folks? Integration of schools? Any time people cry out it's divisive, it means they're getting closer and closer to the pain point. Go check out all the other movements in history... right before there is a breakthrough in public will, you'll see people yelling from the rooftops that it's just a way to divide. It's not. It's the scared misogynists and sexist assholes that might have to keep quiet in public, or better yet change their narrow world view.
https://www.un.org/en/women/endviolence/pdf/VAW.pdf
http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-42436817
https://www.panmacmillan.com/blogs/lifestyle-wellbeing/shocking-gender-inequality-facts-melinda-gates
One in three women worldwide are beaten, forced into sex or abused by an intimate partner. In 2017 alone, DAILY, 137 women were killed by a family member. Women and girls together account for 71% of all human trafficking. A woman is raped every 13 minutes in India.
Women aren’t missing from STEM fields or Sales because they’re ‘natural caregivers.’ Their absence is more likely because of structural barriers such as unfair parental leave policies in the workplace, or the fact that 71% in women field research have received inappropriate sexual remarks and 26% have reported experiencing sexual assault. I wonder how high that percentage is in Sales? I bet you it's higher...
I am actually surprised at how many upvotes your comment got. It's great you can think everyone is on the same playing field, but for women worldwide, it's tilted against you. Hard.
We are pretty damn close to a fair and equitable society in Canada, but I can tell you from my personal experience, woman are paid less, harassed, and generally just get the short end of the stick more often.
Saying it's a divisive scheme is the playbook needed to keep the status quo. You think the suffrage movement was divisive? How about anti-slavery folks? Integration of schools? Any time people cry out it's divisive, it means they're getting closer and closer to the pain point. Go check out all the other movements in history... right before there is a breakthrough in public will, you'll see people yelling from the rooftops that it's just a way to divide. It's not. It's the scared misogynists and sexist assholes that might have to keep quiet in public, or better yet change their narrow world view.
Wait are you a man or woman? Because I would find it absolutely hilarious if I posted my experiences in sales as a woman and you came in here as a man to tell me why I'm wrong and should feel bad. 😂
Either way though, I think it's sad that I came here to post my own lived experiences (positive or at least neutral ones) and someone came in here to try and convince me that I'm just too ignorant to realize that I really am a victim and should feel sad and angry about it. I thought y'all were interested in empowering women...?
I consider myself to be a happy and well balanced person overall and I know it's due (at least in part) to the fact that I don't buy into the victim mentality and don't worry myself into a constant state of anxiety simply because bad things happen in the world. My experience as a woman has not been perfect. I've had some shitty relationships with men and been sexually harassed by strangers. I've heard worse stories from my girl friends. But I don't walk around with a chip on my shoulder - most people are good and want to do the right thing.
There are assholes everywhere and literally every person on the earth faces discrimination and hardship based on gender/sexuality/race/religion/appearance/disability/social class etc at some point in life. This will never be eradicated. Instead of being weak minded and focusing on how it makes life negative I choose to live a positive life regardless of the hand I've been dealt.
I responded to you out of respect for the fact that you have an alternative opinion and to hopefully explain why I feel the way I do. But in all honesty, I've lived with the mindset you're expressing and I've lived how I do now and the difference is night and day. Given I'll never go back believing the world is working against me and life sucks, I'm really not interested in debating it further.
Either way though, I think it's sad that I came here to post my own lived experiences (positive or at least neutral ones) and someone came in here to try and convince me that I'm just too ignorant to realize that I really am a victim and should feel sad and angry about it. I thought y'all were interested in empowering women...?
I consider myself to be a happy and well balanced person overall and I know it's due (at least in part) to the fact that I don't buy into the victim mentality and don't worry myself into a constant state of anxiety simply because bad things happen in the world. My experience as a woman has not been perfect. I've had some shitty relationships with men and been sexually harassed by strangers. I've heard worse stories from my girl friends. But I don't walk around with a chip on my shoulder - most people are good and want to do the right thing.
There are assholes everywhere and literally every person on the earth faces discrimination and hardship based on gender/sexuality/race/religion/appearance/disability/social class etc at some point in life. This will never be eradicated. Instead of being weak minded and focusing on how it makes life negative I choose to live a positive life regardless of the hand I've been dealt.
I responded to you out of respect for the fact that you have an alternative opinion and to hopefully explain why I feel the way I do. But in all honesty, I've lived with the mindset you're expressing and I've lived how I do now and the difference is night and day. Given I'll never go back believing the world is working against me and life sucks, I'm really not interested in debating it further.
Oh and someone responding to my statement that I've managed to find peace and happiness in a flawed world with "no, you're suffering and you just don't know it and should continue to be sad until bad people are eradicated" is the most mysogynistic statement I've ever heard. Forget "damn girl you look hot" or "women can't sell," it's this. Saying I'm happy and feel good being a woman and someone coming in to tell me I shouldn't feel that way. Hard pass. Bye.
Title said debate. I disagreed explained why I disagree with the most upvoted comment.
The only issue I have now is when the ad hominem started. You're hating labels, but can't disagree without a label attached?
No one is discounting your personal experiences, just stating that they are 100% your personal experience.
The only issue I have now is when the ad hominem started. You're hating labels, but can't disagree without a label attached?
No one is discounting your personal experiences, just stating that they are 100% your personal experience.
TBH go read everything I wrote with fresh eyes. I was not putting you down. Your experiences are yours. I just pointed out that ignoring the rest of the world outside of your experiences isn't conducive to positive change.
Be happy. Live your life. Don't let anon strangers make you feel any different. You do you.
I can assure you we are both polar opposites when it comes to the betterment of humanity. The union stuff and now this. I respectfully disagree with your views and won't comment on your posts. This was a debate thread, and it's personal now.
Stay well.
Be happy. Live your life. Don't let anon strangers make you feel any different. You do you.
I can assure you we are both polar opposites when it comes to the betterment of humanity. The union stuff and now this. I respectfully disagree with your views and won't comment on your posts. This was a debate thread, and it's personal now.
Stay well.
I agree that labels have no place anywhere.
Exactly! We’re all people and all individuals. Do not group people.
Is this a debate? She's right.
Hahaha well, I'd like to think so too but am sure some may disagree so Im open for all scenarios.
X2
I'm connected with Amelia too, she is a grafter and will go far. As with everything she tends to post, it's based on sound logic and calling out status quos that make no sense.
Also, as a stickler for French grammar, the original word 'entrepreneur' applies to a man involved in business, the female alternative is simple 'entrepreneuse' - I'd like to see that used more widely but appreciate that isn't particularly inclusive of people that use other pronouns.
Also, as a stickler for French grammar, the original word 'entrepreneur' applies to a man involved in business, the female alternative is simple 'entrepreneuse' - I'd like to see that used more widely but appreciate that isn't particularly inclusive of people that use other pronouns.
wow, super interesting! Did not know this word was the correct one "entrepreneuse" brilliant! Thanks! I will start using it myself.
Very interesting, I once heard that the “-trix” suffix was also meant to refer to a woman performing the role but that it's not commonly used, like "dominatrix".
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/-trix
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/-trix
Yep, think that is definitely correct. Entrepreneur is just a word borrowed directly from French, so no real reason the female equivalent couldn't be used in the same way.
But I do appreciate its a bit like the whole Actor v Actress discussion.
But I do appreciate its a bit like the whole Actor v Actress discussion.
it's the female adjective ending for latin words...
Dominator - Dominatrix
Executor - Executrix
What the shit have you been smoking.
Dominator - Dominatrix
Executor - Executrix
What the shit have you been smoking.
Fair point
Boy astronauts!
LMAO it's ridiculous!
this is BS tbh - during the pandemic, I never heard the females' deceased ppl and the male infected population, because in times of crisis there's no time for such nuisance. Now call me old fashioned but we all suck the same xD
We all suck the same what? lol. Agreed 100% in times of crisis, no one thinks about these labels!
I sit on both sides of this fence; sometimes I think it IS necessary to call out female owned, black owned, minority owned, etc. If nothing else then to highlight that an accomplished business *can* have female/POC leadership at the helm and to get our children to understand that board rooms aren't/don't have to be all rich white dudes.
On the other side, I hate when someone makes it their entire business identity. Though, I find really only MLM participants call themselves 'girl boss'... no accomplished adult female I've ever met has called herself Girl Boss.
On the other side, I hate when someone makes it their entire business identity. Though, I find really only MLM participants call themselves 'girl boss'... no accomplished adult female I've ever met has called herself Girl Boss.
Haha thats true! 100%!
Exactly!! this is the kind of equality we need!
Right!
Amen!
I get why women want to emphasize having female in front of whatever accomplishment - CEO, entrepreneur etc. The business world has been dominated by males for so long - its rare we hear of, let alone remember female CEOs, entrepreneurs, etc.
On the flip side, I see where it takes away the focus on the accomplishment by having to emphasize gender.
On the flip side, I see where it takes away the focus on the accomplishment by having to emphasize gender.
100% you can see it from all angles. Its important that we recognize the accomplishment and the human being behind it. F marketing.
I don't even understand the point of this post. A woman is saying that she dislikes the fact that being a female in these roles is novel enough for some to warrant gendering the title. That's fucking dumb on all levels.
Master of disaster, agreed!
Here’s a curveball for you - why do you think I chose to use the title “Master”?
I am a female & resent when extra adjectives are thrown in versus if a male were in the role. I’m also a female in a male-dominated industry and I go in to situations/environments/job sites knowing I’m not expected to be as knowledgeable or outspoken. And frankly, I love being underestimated. But do not insult me by giving my title a pronoun
I think we need to be friends
I’m game. I’m fresh to sales, but I’m used to having to hold my own in business. And I don’t blink
This is *exactly* why we need to be friends.
Fresh to this particular sales role, also had my own business for 15+ years.
We can hold hands while flipping off oncoming traffic.
Fresh to this particular sales role, also had my own business for 15+ years.
We can hold hands while flipping off oncoming traffic.
Love!
labels are dumb AF
Indeed!
My wife is a geologist, a 98% male dominated field... "male" as default is not always malicious, but is sure is present. Great book on the subject called Invisible Women:
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Women-Data-World-Designed-ebook/dp/B07N1N6VKT
https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Women-Data-World-Designed-ebook/dp/B07N1N6VKT
Thanks for the recommendation
Plus it'd be like giving a speech after a whole bunch of people told you that people like you were worse at speeches and statistically failed more etc. Like no, just give the damn speech and be proud of it. Once it's about identity it's hard to make anything else matter
Yes!!!
Getting rid of ALL labels would be nice, yet, we have groups and awards and scholarships and grants and and and... for all kinds of groups: race, sex, etc... Those in the groups love it when it brings them favor and speak negative otherwise. Yin/Yang is a bitch.
...you do know that it's for making up for... you know the entire 19th century.
"Getting even" never works. Forgiving and moving on always does. You either learn valuable lessons from the past and press on, better equipped to succeed - or you don't and you fail.
It's not about getting even. It's about helping them gain the foothold they've been held back from.
It's not transactional.
It's not transactional.
And whatever you do to "help them" inevitably hurts someone else. It is an never ending spiral. I am NOT justifying whatever the "wrong" is. If it happened, it happened. Let's all learn from it, improve it, and be better because of it. That cannot happen if the result is putting the "injured" in a better position at the expense of others. Life is NOT fair. Deal with it. Accept the reality of the situation, learn from it, become stronger from it, and go kick some ass despite it. We are all better if that occurs.
So, just as a thought experiment.
If you're in a cycle of systemic poverty, crime and abuse. Think indiginous people's, or African Americans, who are repeating the same cycles of poverty and abuse to their kids... Where do we break the cycle?
Provide scholarships? Or do we just call it a wash and let it continue?
What do we do about redlined states and cities? Jerrymandering? Stop and frisk? Higher guilty offender rates? More likely to plea deal due to public defenders being over worked. All of the "systemic" systems in place to keep the cycle going. Can we just say "get over it?"
If you're in a cycle of systemic poverty, crime and abuse. Think indiginous people's, or African Americans, who are repeating the same cycles of poverty and abuse to their kids... Where do we break the cycle?
Provide scholarships? Or do we just call it a wash and let it continue?
What do we do about redlined states and cities? Jerrymandering? Stop and frisk? Higher guilty offender rates? More likely to plea deal due to public defenders being over worked. All of the "systemic" systems in place to keep the cycle going. Can we just say "get over it?"
I never said "get over it".
Throwing money at a problem like abuse to kids has never solved anything otherwise it would be easy to fix.
Education is always a key. That does not mean only classrooms and books. The breakdown of the family is HUGE. Where there is a mother and father, kids do better. That is indisputable. When they are working together as a team, the family does better. When the family does better, the community does better. When the community does better, it holds the members of the community to a higher standard and the world does better. It is the pebble on the pond effect.
If the goal is to "get out" or "escape" their community, then the community never changes.
And we must face the reality that some people do not want to change.
Your second set of situations are different. Where there is a wrong, it must be corrected. Every time. "Learn from it." No one should face tougher consequences due to their race, religion, sex, or financial situation. (well, I could make an argument that someone with greater financial resources should receive harsher punishment..)
Decisions have consequences. Don't want to go to jail, don't commit a crime. It starts there. If I murder my exwife and her boyfriend, I cannot claim I should be set free because OJ was.
Constantly evolving the systems is a must. The fundamentals of this country are sound, it is the people that screw it up. I believe we continue to get better. And we can accelerate that improvement by all working together.
We want the same thing. We are all much more alike than different.
Throwing money at a problem like abuse to kids has never solved anything otherwise it would be easy to fix.
Education is always a key. That does not mean only classrooms and books. The breakdown of the family is HUGE. Where there is a mother and father, kids do better. That is indisputable. When they are working together as a team, the family does better. When the family does better, the community does better. When the community does better, it holds the members of the community to a higher standard and the world does better. It is the pebble on the pond effect.
If the goal is to "get out" or "escape" their community, then the community never changes.
And we must face the reality that some people do not want to change.
Your second set of situations are different. Where there is a wrong, it must be corrected. Every time. "Learn from it." No one should face tougher consequences due to their race, religion, sex, or financial situation. (well, I could make an argument that someone with greater financial resources should receive harsher punishment..)
Decisions have consequences. Don't want to go to jail, don't commit a crime. It starts there. If I murder my exwife and her boyfriend, I cannot claim I should be set free because OJ was.
Constantly evolving the systems is a must. The fundamentals of this country are sound, it is the people that screw it up. I believe we continue to get better. And we can accelerate that improvement by all working together.
We want the same thing. We are all much more alike than different.
don't care what you call me if you pay me!
that being said I would accept manly manager, man boss, boss man, the man of boss, boss of men, boss boy, bossy manly manager man
just please don't call me boy manager, I don't identify as a babysitter
that being said I would accept manly manager, man boss, boss man, the man of boss, boss of men, boss boy, bossy manly manager man
just please don't call me boy manager, I don't identify as a babysitter
Hahahahah boss of men!
I'm connected with Amelia too, she is a grafter and will go far. As with everything she tends to post, it's based on sound logic and calling out status quos that make no sense.
Yeah "girl boss" and "female entrepreneur" just shift the focus onto identity and away from anything productive.
That's right!
I hate it…makes it sound like it’s handed to us because of our gender. Just own that shit. Has much more meaning when you don’t label it.
Yes!
Can we go back to a time where the real "bosses" didn't have to label themselves and post it everywhere for the world to see? Movers and shakers are too busy doing to be consumed with labels and attention.
Pleasee!!
Even crazier when people who identify as a GirlBoss, SheEO and other terms usually mean you're about to get pitched by a MLM shill.
I've had great and horrible bosses of both sexes. Being a good leader is not gender-specific, you either have "it" or you don't.
I've had great and horrible bosses of both sexes. Being a good leader is not gender-specific, you either have "it" or you don't.
100%!
Labels are stupid, plain and simple.
Honestly I don't care "what" you are. What I care about is who you are. Actions, accomplishments. How did you get there. Prefacing your accomplishments with a label detracts from the awesomeness! Almost as though what I accomplished is only great because of "x".
That is obvious to me, sadly there is not obvious for everyone, especially the media press.
I agree that labels have no place anywhere.
Hate it. The more we label people according to gender/color/orientation/whatever the more divided we become. We're all people, let's leave it at that.
I think you’re in agreement with her
She's right, success is success.
The tricky part of this discussion is that it's typically women that are calling other women "girl boss" and the like. You don't hear the term "boy boss" because men have never called each other that (and yes, because bosses were for a long time, only men). But the point stands. Celebrating female success without labels is a must, but the labels from the female community need to stop in order for this to change, so I'm not sure I understand the finger pointing at the male community.
Boi Boss sounds lit tbh
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